Ether 3:13 Redeemed from the Fall

The word, redeemed is an interesting word that I want to understand better. Last week I was reading somewhere in the Book of Mormon and understood that to be redeemed means to be brought back into the presence of the Lord to be judged.

In Ether 3:13, I read "Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall". Is this the same redemption that I read earlier or a different redemption since the Lord added 'the fall'? The Brother of Jared is brought back into the presence of the Lord just like above, but he also has been judged and found worthy to be in God's presence early - which means more than redemption. I will have to study this topic more.

In Mormon 9:13 and 14 I read that there is a redemption from endless sleep. This would be the spirit world. The eternal band of death which is a temporal death must mean dying and going to spirit world without your body. To be redeemed from the temporal death by Jesus Christ is to receive your body and be brought back into his presence. We are then judged by the Holy One and if we are still filthy, unrighteous or unhappy we will remain in that state.

So, what does it mean to be quickened to a kingdom of glory? Does Christ remove our filthiness at this time? Are we still unhappy inheriting a kingdom of glory? Is there more payment to be made after the judgment? Does the latter-day doctrine amplify the doctrine of the Book of Mormon - superceding it?

And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

Regarding an Article on Forced Giving

Here’s some thoughts (on Walter Williams Article):

1. The rub: without the unconstitutional welfare system, America might not be as ‘good’ as we have grown up believing. Without the welfare system, would Americans have been willing to give up a portion of their wealth to help the poor – especially the undeserving poor? Knowing our Calvinistic heritage, probably not. Knowing our reverence for the dog eat dog culture (competitive, emulating and fierce), probably not. So here’s the constitutional welfare rub: Is it possible that America would have lost its blessed state faster without the implementation of a welfare system by our elected officials (apparently going beyond their constitutional powers)? Would America have fallen faster and deeper into a society of haves and have-nots? A society where the haves would drive home from work every day passing homeless hordes of people on the side of the street begging for food and shelter? Would most of the haves constantly fear being broken into by angry, disenfranchised, disillusioned have-nots that have decided to find food and money in this inappropriate way? The rub I have about going back to the constitution while most of America has deep Korihorian beliefs - which are wicked according to Mormon – is that it would be detrimental to the American way of life in ways we are unwilling to imagine or accept.
2. When the Nephites were embracing the supply-demand dog eat dog, class stratification, mocking the poor, loving money system, they were left to rely on their own strength (which was great according to the strength of a man) and no longer received the strength, protection and prosperity of the Lord.
3. Most Americans I talk to are more than willing to give voluntarily the involuntary taxes imposed upon them for better good. They are grateful to be living in a land where it’s still possible to pursue happiness. The system of helping the poor isn’t perfect but it’s still helping the poor. God blesses nations that help the poor whether or not the nation is constitutional or not. We are not worthy of our constitution. We haven’t been worthy of it for many, many years. Captain Moroni was needed in 1839 when the Mormons were expulsed from Missouri, in 1913 when the international bankers took over the country’s financial system, in 1938 when America went into receivership to the international banks and the Uniform Commercial Code was unknowingly imposed upon all Americans, when our government forcibly relocated Native Americans in 1831 (the Trail of Tears) so Americans could steal their lands. Where was our Captain Moroni? And now we awaken to our awful state and want to change it all back? We ALL still have the wicked belief systems drummed into us through our childhood and adulthood and we don’t even know what the belief system is!
4. Compare your belief system with the belief system of righteous Nephites and you will know where the contradictions lie. They are deeply rooted. But, we know they are correct and good, you exclaim! They worked for our fathers. Why can’t they work for us? Because, the Lord will not suffer that we take happiness in sin forever. We are either changing and progressing toward unity, love and compassion or we are not.

Let me know what you think. Fight my thoughts! Let’s have a real discussion.
Scott Nelson

I just read your response. I agree with your state level arguments, etc. I will give your thoughts more thought! My original email was my way of kind a stepping back and looking at the mess that has been creating and trying make sense of it. You will have to read my blog on Nephites. I was not very clear on framing my Nephite thought. My line of thought was regarding how the righteous Christian Nephite of Alma’s time period operated within the general Nephite free market system (like our American free market system with all the regulations). Political, religious and economic freedom was definitely the foundation of Nephite system and worth fighting as our constitution is worth fighting for. Mormon was decrying a belief system that was entering into the church in Alma 30. The wicked belief system is one that we Americans generally believe.

Love,

Craig's Response:

On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Craig Nelson <craignelson8@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott,Great point but I do have some comments.1. The welfare of the poor would be taken care of by one of three methods.
1st: If the federal government was following the Constitution we would not have the majority of our regulations which restrain businesses to succeed. This increase the wealth of the nation so that anyone that wanted to work could and for a wage that would be adequate to support them.2nd: With the increased wealth I believe that people would give to churches and charities. Oh wait they already do, in amounts greater then any other country in the world. And, I believe it would continue and increase.3rd: I we want the government to take care of the poor that is fine, just not the federal government. Each state can have a welfare program as they deem necessary. This would be a way for states to attract or repel people and businesses. The Constitution restrains the federal government.
2. You are absolutely correct. And if we want to force people to have "charity" [Christ like Love] toward each other then it is Constitution at the state level. I don't think it is correct, you know agency and free will, but if done correctly through laws with due process, I will go with it.3. Again most of that should be take care at the state level.4. The Constitution was designed to protect the freedom of men. To allow them to succeed or fail. To allow them to worship and believe as they want. From my understanding, the Nephites and Moroni went after those that fought against God and the Church. They didn't force people to believe but they did punish, even unto death, those that would take others freedoms away.Scott, I am sure that I am missing something and have not spent enough time researching to create a bullet proof argument but I did want to respond timely.I really enjoy these conversation. It really irritates me that as a people we ether don't talk about "religion" and "politic" or we keep them separate. The scriptures, all of them, are full of politics and government.Love,
Craig

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take everything you have!"If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterityneglect its instruction and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory inprofound obscurity." (Daniel Webster)

Secret Combinations

As was reading this morning from the Book of Helaman. After the destruction of the Gadianton robbers six years back, the Nephites lived in pease and happiness for about five years. Then pride and class distinction entered into the society causing the church to be broken up. Men, inspired by God began to preach unto the people about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Government officials, not having authority, took it into their own hands to have these men privately put to death. Good people brought this issue before the chief judge to exact justice on the murderious lower judges. Here's how it reads: Now it came to pass that they were taken and brought up before the judge, to be judged of the crime which they had done, according to the law which had been given by the people. 27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law. 28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness. 29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law. 30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings These verses help me understand how a secret combination begins to emerge in a society. It reads like a good old boy network. 'The same buddies that you have kinship, business relationships with, etc. are brought together to support each other in criminal activity. There must be a lot of pressure to be part of this new criminal buddy system. In order to be above the law they decide they need a king. A king is necessary because the king will have power to change laws at a whim. That way law and justice can be arbitrarily decided upon by the king and his cronies. Right and wrong are removed from the equation. This a bad habit to get into. Look at governments all over the world that run on arbitrary law. Their economies fall apart. The king take the tax money and loan money and puts it in Swiss bank accounts. They kill their opponents. They rape their women. They set up security forces to keep them safe from revolt. I wonder if secret business practices intending on taking over or destroying another man's business is a precursor to the real wicked secret combinations?

The Commandments of the Lord

Keeping the commandments has always been confusing to me. There are the Lord's commandments, the 10 commandments, church commandments, cultural commandments (protocols and traditions) and a myriad of other 'commandment' that I am told I must live. It just depends on who you talk to. There is definitely something do with higher and lower laws and where a person is at in his spiritual development. It also has to do with the Lord's plan for the church in the last days - we may be asked (or commanded or counceled) to obey certain things because there is a higher purpose in it (like church unity, church mainstreaming, how we project ourselves to the world, united front, etc.) There may also be specific things in our current society that we are too close to (forest from the trees) and seem to lack depth of understanding, thus leading to counsel from the church leaders regarding the matter.

But, with all that said there is a set of commandments clearly set forth in the Book of Mormon. My specific text will come from 3 Nephi at the time of the visitation of Jesus Christ to more tighteous part of the Nephites.

Outline:

1. The voice of the Lord prepares the people that are left. Coming unto the Lord and being healed are taught as well of the need to sacrifice a broken heart and contrite spirit.
2. Almost a year later Christ appears to a certain group of righteous Nephites - possibly those who worked on themselves over the year. Jesus tell of the doctrine of the Father including baptism, no contention, believing, repenting, becoming as a little child and building on the rock.
3. Jesus then teaches about certain attitudes that we will be blessed if we develop. The attitudes include poor in spirit, meekness, hungering and thirsting after righteousness and enduring persecution for Christ's sake. Jesus calls these the commandments of the Father - as if to follow the doctrine of Father, one must develop these character traits or attitudes.
4. Jesus then preaches a sermon. The sermon includes correcting old mosaic laws of killing, adultery and swearing; how to love others in faith; and never doing certain actions to aggrandize oneself. Jesus then tells the people that these are his commandments.
5. Later in another visit, Jesus tells the people to keep his commandments. He added the sacrament among other things.

I wonder if all the other commandments that we are asked to obey are but a school master to help us get to the level that we are able to obey the above commandments.

While I was thinking about Christ's commandments I thought about being sued by someone for my coat and that I should give my cloak also. I asked myself what would be required in my being to be able to give the cloak? I would definitely have to have developed a deep love for the other person or people in general. I couldn't be harboring ill feelings that I just got sued for something I really need. But, above all, or at least equally important, is a developed ability to rely on God and to trust in Him. If I truly believe (a developed line upon line faith) in an omnipotent God that has all power to restore that which I have lost (law of compensation - Elder Wirthlin), then what does it matter that I end up giving up my coat (or my home, land, possessions)? It requires faith in unseen principles to live the gospel law as taught by Jesus Christ. What are unseen principles? That God is really there. That he loves you. That what he is teaching is going to work. That he will take care of you if you do His will. That death is okay - or a willingness to die out of love for God and brethren (Anti Neph Lehies). This belief in the unseen is what is required. Breaking the veil of unbelief is so important. True faith cannot be exercised until one has developed this trust in his life. Can you see that fear and worry and anger and despair are the opposite of faith, hope and love? The negative emotions inside of us are indicators that we have not arrived, that we still have some work to do. By the way, all unseen principles are mocked by the world as stupid and foolish.

I will have to get to the analysis of the commandments of the Lord verse by verse another day.

My Analysis of the Little Red Hen

I liked the story of the little red hen (below). It generally makes sense in an economy that people are incentivized by money and money is all that is important. If the USA were to drop all social programs in order to lower our taxes, would the mentally ill (poor), disabled (poor) elderly (poor), children (of the poor), unemployed (poor), etc., be helped by the individuals and churches in way that their needs are taken care of? If so, we should drop all taxation going toward all social programs in the USA. Perhaps the government shouldn’t be doing any social programs as many conservatives believe. I believe (and could be wrong) that if these programs were dropped, it would result in dire situations for many people. I believe the visible results would be huge number of people on the sides of the road begging for money, shelter and food; a noticeable increase in deformities, sickness and death; and a huge increase in hungry and angry people climbing over your back fence breaking into your home to find food and money. Those that have enough would have to drive by those people on the sides of the road everyday and say, oh well, I am sure glad I have enough; watch children and friends die early because they didn’t have any way to pay for a cure; notice odd deformities people have as we purchase our fast food; and put bars on our windows and doors to try to keep these bad people out – it’s not my problem that their children are hungry – they broke the law!

The US government has implemented programs that have helped to curtail the results of inequality and poverty. If the government doesn’t do it, will individuals and churches pick up the slack? With the increases in greediness among the rich and the increasing lack of Christian charity I sometimes have a more pessimistic view of what might occur. Maybe we should give it a try and see what happens.


Subject: little red hen
Barnyard Scenerio

"Who will help me plant my wheat?" said the little red hen. "Not I," said the cow.
"Not I," said the duck.

"Not I," said the pig.
"Not I," said the goose.
"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen, and so she did. She planted her crop, and the wheat grew very tall and ripened into golden grain.
"Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked the little red hen.
"Not I," said the duck..
"Out of my classification," said the pig.

"I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
"I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.
"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen, and so she did.

At last it came time to bake the bread.
"Who will help me bake the bread?" asked the little red hen.
"That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
"I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
"I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
"If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.
"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen.
She baked five loaves and held them up for all of her neighbors to see. They wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little red hen said, "No, I shall eat all five loaves."
"Excess profits!" cried the cow. (Nancy Pelosi)
"Capitalist leech!" screamed the duck. (Barbara Boxer)
"I demand equal rights!" yelled the goose. (Jesse Jackson)

The pig just grunted in disdain. (Ted Kennedy)
And they all painted 'Unfair!' picket signs and marched around and around the little red hen, shouting obscenities.
Then the farmer (Obama) came. He said to the little red hen, "You must not be so greedy."
"But I earned the bread," said the little red hen."Exactly," said Barack the farmer. "That is what makes our free enterprise system so wonderful. Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our modern government regulations, the productive workers must divide the fruits of their labor with those who are lazy and idle."
And they all lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, for now I truly understand."
But her neighbors became quite disappointed in her. She never again baked bread because she joined the 'party' and got her bread free. And all the Democrats smiled. 'Fairness' had been established.
Individual initiative had died, but nobody noticed; perhaps no one cared...so long as there was free bread that 'the rich' were paying for.

IS THIS A GREAT BARNYARD OR WHAT?

When Do Nice Things Become Pride?

When do nice things become pride? I don't know. How did Alma the Younger in the Book of Mormon ascertain that a person was proud. How did Mormon ascertain the same thing when he saw our day? Can an All In Common Church actually work in our day?

These are questions that go unanswered in my mind.

I sometimes believe, from my vantage point, that most Latter Day Saints in America would not be able to contribute much more of their substance than they already do if having all things in common was promoted and taught by the church leaders. I may be wrong about this but there are some reasons why this might be true.

Imagine that the church teaching the principle. Many members start to contribute what they perceive as their surplus. They are driving unreliable cars, have no health insurance, still have debts and have not retirement. Once the church realizes that this is going on, the teaching may change, explaining to the members that their personal needs must be met before considering their substance a surplus. Thus, perhaps upwards of 95% of the American church wouldn't contribute more that a regular fast offering each month.

The all in common church could quite possibly be implemented in other parts of the world where there isn't any debt, people live very humbly and are somewhat homogeneous in income. It would be wonderful to see a pilot program! Since that stake is living the 'laws of the celestial kingdom', the people would be blessed and prospered in unimaginable ways! Their standard of living would increase far beyond the rest of society. Why? Because they are all prospering together! It is the Lord's way. This stake would probably send their 'Samuel the Lamanite' to us in America to call us to repentance. We would be shocked that a foreigner would have the audacity to us, the center stakes of Zion to repentance! My imagination is quite vivid, isn't it?

Alma's Church: Foundations

It seems that it wasn't uncommon to have a tradition of having all things in common for the people of the Book of Mormon. Alma seems to have made this a main tennant of the church he orgainized. There are two roots in the Book of Mormon to having all things in common that I wish to explore: Jacob 2 and Mosiah 4.

Four hundred and sixty years before Alma organized his church, Jacob rebuked his people with the following in Jacob 2:17-18:

Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you. But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Here Jacob exhorts his brethren to be free with their substance so everyone can be rich. Substance mean wealth in any form. "Think of your brethren like unto yourselves". Jacob doesn't want any personal amassing of wealth. He says in verse 19 that if we really have a hope in Christ, we can do nothing but help others with our surplus wealth. But, it appears that our inclination or desire to give away our substance is brought about by whether or not we have sought the kingdom of God. The natual man cannot even comprehend giving freely. He considers it foolishness. And he never will know the blessings and miracles that he might have received if he had faith. And receiving the blessings is proof (in some twisted way) that Jacob's just doesn't work.

In Mosiah 4:22-23, King Benjamin, forty years before the establishment of Alma's church tells his people that one of the results of rebirth in the Christ is use your substance as if it were a gift:

And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

King Benjamin is saying that the rich man will perish if he doesn't use his gift of making wealth to help others. You can't even judge the person who you know messed up his temporal situation. It just doesn't matter. Since your substance isn't yours anyways, the Lord's requirement being blessing with this temporal gift is to give it all away. Many get distressed at this idea these days - but to King Benjamin it show true discipleship.

Let's look at verses 17-18:

Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just— But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

This earler verse tells us that we are all beggars - or at least people who have had the change of heart. Christ gave you the gift of redeeming love so love others in the small way that you can. Not everyone has the same gift in this life. Some have spiritual gifts and others have temporal gifts. To withhold your temporal gift is like a person with gift of healing to withhold his gift from you when you are sick!

Alma new the doctrine and organized his church of believers according to that doctrine. The members - and the whole nation were blessed because of this order that they followed. They were delivered from the hands of the Lamanites over and over again. They were prospered in all ways. They had the strength of the Lord!